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Resources For SDAs Only Solid Proof that Ellen White Never Became Trinitarian
Resources For SDAs Only Solid Proof that Ellen White Never Became Trinitarian
| Solid Proof that Ellen White Never Became Trinitarian |
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There are many professed Seventh-day Adventists who, in support of the trinity doctrine, say that Ellen White changed the anti-trinitarian thinking of the church by writing a book called "The Desire of Ages" in 1898.They say that when people began to read this book they came to understand that God is really a trinity. They say it was Ellen White who changed the thinking of the church. Now, let us notice something most significant. Most of us are reasonably familiar with Scripture and the writings of Ellen White; so I want to ask this: Do you agree that Ellen G. White would've been classed as a false prophet if she held "heretical views" on the Godhead? Do you agree that Ellen G. White would've been classed as a false prophet if she consistently contradicted herself? Do you believe that God gives revelation to people or groups who subscribe to "heretical doctrines", like denying the Trinity? Friends, I believe with all my heart and soul, that Ellen G. White was/is a True Prophet of God - The God of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, Noah, Moses, David, Elijah, Daniel, John the Baptist, Paul, and John the Revelator. Furthermore, my objective is not necessarily to disprove the trinity doctrine. My prime purpose is to interpret Ellen White's statements [on whatever subject] so that nothing contradicts (RH, November 25, 1884 par. 24). In an effort to do that very thing, it will be proven that Ellen White was NOT a trinitarian. It will be proven that those who advocate her as being "trinitarian", thus make her into a false prophet. And more importantly, it will be proven how the trinity doctrine destroys the Atonement and the Sanctuary Service messages. I cannot overstate how vital it is that we understand this. Now please, let us review the Desire of Ages paragraph immediately above, this time, paying extra attention to the portions that are underlined, as well as the portion that is capitalized: DA 671: "The power of evil had been strengthening for centuries, and the submission of men to this Satanic captivity was amazing. Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead, who would come with no modified energy, but in the fullness of divine power. It is the Spirit that makes effectual what has been wrought out by the world's Redeemer. It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. CHRIST HAS GIVEN HIS SPIRIT AS A DIVINE POWER TO OVERCOME ALL HEREDITARY AND CULTIVATED TENDENCIES TO EVIL, AND TO IMPRESS HIS OWN CHARACTER UPON HIS CHURCH." Most SDAs do not recognize the subject of the Godhead as a Landmark or Pillar doctrine of pioneer Seventh-day Adventism: "Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the personality of God or of Christ, are working as blind men. They are seeking to bring in uncertainties and to set the people of God adrift without an anchor." (E.G. White, Manuscript Releases 760 9.5) "I entreat every one to be clear and firm regarding the certain truths that we have heard and received and advocated. The statements of God's Word are plain. Plant your feet firmly on the platform of eternal truth. Reject every phase of error, even though it be covered with a semblance of reality, which denies the personality of God and of Christ." (Review and Herald, August 31, 1905 par. 11) "The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared: "I and My Father are one." Yet it was the Son of God who came to the world in human form. Laying aside His royal robe and kingly crown, He clothed His divinity with humanity, that humanity through His infinite sacrifice might become partakers of the divine nature and escape the corruption that is in the world through lust." (9T pages 67-68) Is it not interesting that Ellen White does NOT mention the personality of the Holy Spirit in the above statements? IF the Holy Spirit has been the third person of the Godhead since eternity past, then why does she not mention Him? The reason she does not is because she elsewhere defines the personality of the Holy Spirit to be that of the life and soul of Christ, and it would thus be redundant to mention the personality of the Holy Spirit as extra to that of God and Christ. What Was the Landmark SDA Teaching Concerning the Identity of the Holy Spirit? "The Power of God in the Third Person.--The prince of the power of evil can only be held in check by the power of God in the third person of the Godhead, the Holy Spirit." (E.G. White, Special Testimonies, Series A, No. 10, p. 37) {1897}. DA 671: "Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead ...". The Bible says that it is Jesus, God's Son, whom the Father sent to bless us, turning away every one of us from our iniquities. Acts 3:26 Unto you first God, having raised up his Son Jesus, sent him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from his iniquities. The "power of evil" is synonymous with iniquity, so unless Ellen White disagreed with the Bible, (and she did not!), we know that the Son is the Holy Spirit - which is the ONLY agency which holds in check or resists the prince of the power of evil or iniquity. Did Ellen White Say that the Holy Spirit was Christ? "Christ declared that after his ascension, he would send to his church, as his crowning gift, the Comforter, who was to take his place. This Comforter is the Holy Spirit,--the soul of his life, the efficacy of his church, the light and life of the world. With his Spirit Christ sends a reconciling influence and a power that takes away sin. In the gift of the Spirit (HIS LIFE--THE SOUL OF HIS LIFE), Jesus gave to man the highest good that heaven could bestow. ... The Spirit was given as a regenerating agency, and without this the sacrifice of Christ would have been of no avail. ... It is by the Spirit that the heart is made pure. Through the Spirit the believer becomes a partaker of the divine nature. Christ has given his Spirit as a divine power to overcome all hereditary and cultivated tendencies to evil, and to impress his own character upon the church." (E.G. White, Review and Herald , May 19, 1904 par. 1, 2, 3). Thus we have the landmark pillar doctrine teaching of the pioneers concerning the Godhead. It becomes clear that any other doctrine would work total despite to the Atonement and the Sanctuary doctrine as well as the terms of the Everlasting Covenant, which demanded the death of the Testator. What the Trinity Doctrine blasphemes is the fact that Jesus shed His Holy Spirit FOREVER, to become invested with humanity. This is one of the greatest condescension's of the Incarnation, and the Trinity Doctrine denies this great sacrifice on the part of our Lord, Jesus Christ. The trinity doctrine teaches that this other spirit which is separate from Christ's breath of His own Spirit, His own life, abides in men, rather than the life of CHRIST'S OWN LIFE abiding in men. This is an abomination. This is blasphemy. This is antichrist. James White, J.N. Andrews, and ALL the other SDA pioneers recognized this truth. The regeneration--regenerating agency was NOT Christ's death on the cross. It was something else without which "His sacrifice on the cross would have been of no avail". That "something else", was His Holy Spirit mind, soul and breath, in addition to His blood shed on the cross. The other three--the Holy Spirit mind, soul and breath, was shed or laid aside at His Incarnation, to be [later] given to us, as a gift, for the purpose of regeneration-regenerating us into the image of God. THAT was the highest good and the crowing gift that Christ gave to us, NOT only the death of His humanity on the Cross. For without the regenerating Holy Spirit life, breath and soul (mind) of Christ, sin could have proliferated forever. That is another reason why the truth of this issue is so relevant to the Sacrifice of Christ and EVERYTHING He sacrificed - not just the cross. The Cross Sacrifice provided for justification. The Incarnation Sacrifice provided for sanctification. "Christ gives them the breath of HIS OWN SPIRIT, the life of HIS OWN LIFE. The HOLY SPIRIT puts forth its highest energies to work in the heart and mind." (E.G. White, Desire of Ages, p. 827). All this could mean is: exactly what Ellen White says that it means. The Holy Spirit is the life, breath and soul of Christ - imparted to us as a regenerating agency, made possible for the first time under the New Covenant, by Christ "laying aside that life" and "bequeathing it to us". If Christ had not given His original life Holy Spirit as a regenerating agency, then His sacrifice on the Cross would have been of no avail, because man could never have overcome and the Sanctuary would never have been cleansed. The Cross provided justification for sins past, but the Holy Spirit life, breath and soul of Christ, which He possessed in Heaven before His Incarnation into humanity, was ABSOLUTELY NECESSARY for sanctification, overcoming, and the final cleansing of the Sanctuary. Without this gift the Sanctuary would never be cleansed. This is what Ellen White was referring to, when in the Alpha of Apostasy, she saw THE SANCTUARY GONE--THE ATONEMENT GONE. In other words, IF Christ did not give us His original state-of-being Holy Spirit as a regenerating agency, the Atonement could have never been complete and would have been of no avail. "In a representation which passed before me, I saw a certain work being done by medical missionary workers. Our ministering brethren were looking on, watching what was being done, but they did not seem to understand. The foundation of our faith, which was established by so much prayer, such earnest searching of the Scriptures, was being taken down, pillar by pillar. Our faith was to have nothing to rest upon--the sanctuary was gone, the atonement was gone." (E.G. White, The Upward Look, p.152). This is what the Omega Heresy of the trinity doctrine has achieved. It completely denies that Christ sacrificed His personal Holy Spirit at His Incarnation. Acceptance of the trinity doctrine makes the Atonement and the Sanctuary Service null and void, because it is by CHRIST'S PERSONAL Holy SPIRIT that sanctification is effected. The trinity doctrine teaches that Christ did not sacrifice His personal Holy Spirit. The trinity doctrine teaches that the Holy Spirit was another separate and distinct person from - the person of the Son. Without the sacrifice of the Son's own personal Holy Spirit, AT HIS INCARNATION, to be given as a regenerating agency, the entire sacrifice of Christ would be null and void and the requirement of the FOREVER death of the Testator of the Covenant - would not be met. The Scriptural answer to this conundrum is that the Holy Spirit was and is the life, breath and soul of the Son, until the Son gave up His first state-of-being (pure Divinity) to be forever linked with humanity at His Incarnation. This is the ONLY answer that makes all Ellen White statements on the subject of the Godhead, interpret so that nothing contradicts. James Franks. Hits: 3958 Comments (82)
  written by Real Michaud, March 30, 2009
If you are thinking that me or the team at WLC are promoting the "Trinity" error that the pioneers exposed you are either crazy or twisting your angel. First you do nothing but promote the trinity then you turn around and say we support the trinity? You quote some odd Catholic sources, but no matter how you slice and dice it, the Catholics and most Protestants believe in 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. That is "mystery Babylon".
you say....If you accept the teaching that the Holy Spirit is not the separate, Third Person of the Godhead, you are a good Catholic. Beware of the errors you accept from teachers in our ranks.] My confused brother you miss the point. The Catholics believe that all three persons are co-eternal and all should be worshipped Here is part of the crede from the 381 council of Constantinople...... And in the Holy Ghost, the Lord and Giver of life, who proceedeth from the Father, who with the Father and the Son together is worshiped and glorified, who spake by the prophets. In one holy catholic and apostolic Church; we acknowledge one baptism for the remission of sins; we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come. Amen. We do not worship the Holy Ghost. No where in the bible are we commanded to worship the Holy Ghost. Here is another quote from the same council saying this... And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, begotten of the Father before all worlds (æons), Light of Light, very God of very God, begotten, not made, being of one substance with the Father; it says they are of the same substance...meaning that God the Father and the Son are the exact same person. This is blasphemy. Now be honest steve....be honest about this subject...do not try and say the Trinity is correct and then when you are losing the battle against truth, turn around and say the trinity is false and me or anyone else at WLC is promoting the Trinity! Its perposterous!
 written by Paul Steve, March 29, 2009
Quoted below are few statements, from official Catholic theological works, about the Trinity. You will read about this weird error which our pioneers so strongly opposed:Notice that their Trinity concept contains the same basic error that some within our own ranks (and also the WLC) are now teaching
 1)The Son came out of the Father, beginning long ago; so He is not eternal. (2) The Holy Spirit has no separate existence, but only as He keeps coming out of the others. (3) God is one in person. “The Son proceeds from the Father by generation (and generation means the process of begetting offspring, reproduction, or giving birth to)...” The Convert’s Catechism of Catholic Doctrine, p 31 by Peter Geiermann, C.SS.R., Imprimatur - September 16, 1957. RC: The Son proceeds from the Father and the Holy Spirit proceeds out of both of Them—“The Fa- ther begets the Son, and the Son proceeds from the Father. The Father and Son breathe forth the Holy Ghost, and He proceeds from Them, as from one Source.”—“One God in Three Persons,” My Catholic Faith: A Manual of Religion, Louis Laravoire Morrow,Bishop of Krishnagar, p. 30. RC: The Spirit is only Christ’s breath—“Pneumais understood in the light of John 20:22 where Christ, appearing to the Apostles, breathed on them and conferred on them the Holy Spirit. He is the breath of Christ (John Damascene, ‘Fid. orth.’, 1, viii), breathed by Him [Christ] into us (Cyril of Alexandria, ‘Thesaurus’; cf. Petav., ‘De Trin’, V, vii).”—Ibid. RC: The Holy Spirit proceeds out of the Father and the Son—“The Son proceeds from the Father; the Holy Ghost proceeds from the Father and the Son.”— Ibid. RC: The Holy Spirit flows out of the Father through the Son—“Tertullian dwells at length on the Paraclete. The Holy Ghost, he says, proceeds from the Father through the Son (iv, viii in P.L., II, 182, 187);teaching all truth (ii in P.L. II, 179).”—Ibid. RC: Every good Catholic must accept that the Holy Spirit comes out of the Father and the Son,and does not have a separate existence—“He [the Holy Spirit] proceeds, not by way of generation, but by way of spiration, from the Father and the Son together, as from a single principle. Such is the belief the Catholic faith demands.”—The Catholic Encyclopedia,1914 Edition, art. “Holy Ghost.” [If you accept the teaching that the Holy Spirit is not the separate, Third Person of the Godhead, you are a good Catholic. Beware of the errors you accept from teachers in our ranks.] RC: The Holy Spirit is only the spirit of God and Christ—“The Holy Ghost is the Spirit of Christ. He is also the Spirit of the Father. Thus St. Augustine argues (In Joan, tr. xcix, 6, 7 in P.L., XXXV, 18  . .Just as there is only one Father, just as there is only one Lord or one Son, so there is only one Spirit, who is, consequently, the Spirit of both [of the other two].”— Ibid. Although Catholic theologians talk about “three Persons” in their Trinity, they do not really teach three persons! The Son is something God keeps inventing out of His own “intellect” (“eternal generation,” it is called). The two of them exude, or float out, something called “the Holy Ghost” which isn’t really there. It is only an expression of the “will” of God. Do you want to teach—or even believe—the Catholic error which our pioneer writers so earnestly opposed? God bless you brothers as you study the inpsired word
 written by Kevin McGill, March 27, 2009
I have to say I admire the patience on both sides of this study. Understanding the nature of God is complex and beyond my own limited human comprehension. Thankfully we do have the bible and the Spirit of Prophecy to shed light, and we can come to some conclusions from that, the one conclusion we can all agree on is that there is One God. Galal Doss implied that the Trinity is in defendable. I have to disagree, and my position of disagreement is not of stubborn rejection. The bible, as members have pointed out has to be paramount, and the value that Mrs White has brought, is that she keeps the bible as paramount, and through The Spirit of Prophesy is able to expand our comprehension of the bible while never adding to it or taking away from it. The bible and the bible alone is our fundamental ground for truth. How amazing to have a prophet in the 19th century that can help a simple mind like my own understand the significance of God, through books like Desire of Ages, Steps to Christ, and The Great Controversy.
The question of course is, is it possible for Jesus and the Holy Spirit to be intricately connected as a 3 in one Godhead. I agree with the points Paul Steve brings up so I won't reiterate his points now. My point is the 3 in on Godhead is not only defendable the evidence seems to be that Ellen White supported this belief and there is also equally strong support in the bible (see Paul Steve's posts). So particularly in a form titled "solid proof Ellen White never became a Trinitarian", its important to examine said "solid proof" and when it isn't solid, I would respect acknowledgment of that. I had always believed that Ellen White was in support of the Trinity, so this post made me really re examine Adventist History, and especially Ellen White's writings on the Godhead. I encourage everyone to think on their own, and use spiritual discernment. And I continue to pray this prayer for myself. As Proverbs 3:5-6 says, “Trust in the Lord with all your heart and lean not on your own understanding, and he will make your paths straight.” Your Brother in Christ ~Kevin McGill
written by Paul Steve, March 27, 2009
----All these arguments in favor of the Dogma of the Trinity ( I say Dogma because it is based on man's traditions, and not God's law) are Jesuit based.---
My friend, you have been repeating the same old argument that simply isn’t true pointing to the Trinity error which Papacy invented (which I do not believe - my belief i have already laidout). Roman Catholicism teaches that the Son comes out of the Father and the Holy Spirit comes from both;—and yet there is only one God! There is no Son apart from the Father and no Holy Spirit apart from both. Significantly, the roots of Arianism (Christ is not eternal) and the no-separate-Holy Spirit teaching both find their source in this peculiar doctrine. Catholic theologians gradually combined pagan concepts with a misinterpretation of Scripture—to present the world with a magnificent counterfeit of the truth: (1) A Son who is always partly there and always partly emerging out (“continuous generation”) from the Father. (2) A Holy Spirit, which has no separate existence, but is continually exhaled (“continuous spiration”) from both the Father and the Son. A good study into the history of Trinity error will teach that what you believe is a product of the same error. ---That is why we must base All our beliefs on the Bible, and then see if what others say holds up to the Bible.---- Bro, could you show me from the bible where it says Christ was begotten in the beginning? I would love to see it!!!! ---I praise God for your patience and humility in your attempts to explain to Paul Steve the difference between the biblical Godhead, as endorsed by Ellen White and pioneers of the SDA Church.---- Brothers, I wonder which pioneers you are referring to? For our pioneers at times, disagreed or had differing views with one another even over the understanding of Godhead. So I’ll be interested to know which ones you pick and which ones you pick not to support your belief. That’ll be very interesting. Another important thing note is that the gift of prophesy was manifested in the writings of EGW only and not in our pioneers!!! See : http://www.greatcontroversy.or...iredp.php3 ----Paul Steve is inadvertently (since I do not read hearts, I would even say innocently) defending the Indefensible.---- Let’s leave this to our forum members to decide what is defensible and what is not. What has been defended and what has been not. I hope that is reasonable!!!! ---The trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus did not actually die. That is false. He did die. If Jesus did not die as the Catholics say, and as you seem to say Mrs. White says, then this doctrine of the Trinity brings in immortality of the soul.---- Jesus came in the seed of Abraham. He was made like unto his brethren in all points. He is our example. To this I totally agree! However, he doesn’t have a beginning and he has underived Deity. He is God in flesh. "When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." 5BC 1113. Humanity of Chrsit actually died!!!!No denial here!!!! ----Romans does not say "if you confess that Jesus the Lord is co-equal with God and believe that in your heart, that he raised himself from the dead, thou shalt be saved",. Romans says what it says.--- Bible in Rom 10:9 does not have to say "if you confess that Jesus the Lord is co-equal with God “because elsewhere In the bible it says Christ was begotten at the resurrection (and not some time in the beginning – see my previous posts) and nothing came into existence without him (JN 1:3), then the bible says what is says. EGW says “there was not a time he was not” and Christ was “God essentially, and in the HIGHEST sense -1 Selected Messages, 247 (Review and Herald, April 5, 1906) – Sounds like the Most High without a beginning!!! Both the Bible and the EGW say the same thing, but you are telling me otherwise. Bro, whom should I believe. The inspired word or you? ---The Holy Spirit is not an actual person, but the personality of God, given to his Son then given to us.---- “We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)” Evangelism, 616. Brother, do you realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person? May God bless you in your study.
written by Real Michaud, March 26, 2009
Thank you very much.
Its Christ in me that give patience! I am learning as I go too! I didn't even adress the issue of the Holy Spirit not "revealing" himself in Heaven before Sin! That is a new one, and one that must be crushed. All these arguments in favor of the Dogma of the Trinity( I say Dogma because it is based on man's traditions, and not God's law) are Jesuit based. Believe me when I say, the Jesuits have read everything Ellen White has ever written, and they will find anything to twist her into believing something she didn't. That is why we must base All our beliefs on the Bible, and then see if what others say holds up to the Bible.
 written by galal doss, March 26, 2009
Dear Real
I praise God for your patience and humility in your attempts to explain to Paul Steve the difference between the biblical Godhead, as endorsed by Ellen White and pioneers of the SDA Church, and the Satanic Trinity doctrine which is today (actually since 1931, but was only voted in 1980 by the world wide church) endorsed by the fallen and apostate SDA Church, in unity with all the fallen churches. The SDA Church could not have made the ecumenical progress it has achieved without discarding the biblical Godhead, and replacing it with the Roman Catholic Trinity. This change was necessary for the SDA Church to undertake, in order to be accepted as a Christian denomination instead of a cult. What a price they have paid to get accepted by the fallen churches: exchanging His truth with Satan\'s. Paul Steve is inadvertently (since I do not read hearts, I would even say innocently) defending the Indefensible. But it is a fatal and grave position which he is taking. And to attempt to make Ellen White responsible for this diabolical doctrine is incomprehensible. All we can do after having presented the two sides to His people, is to pray that the rays of truth would be allowed to penetrate the hearts of the genuine truth seekers. We will be honored to have a member of the WLC Team. In His love and service, WLC Team.
written by Real Michaud, March 26, 2009
Steve I just wanted you to know that I am not part of the WLC team, just a member who came across this site looking for information on the New World Order.
"2) If Jesus is absolutely co-equal with "the blessed and only Potentate Who only hath immortality" (1 Tim. 6:15,16), who absolutely cannot die, then Jesus did not truly die:" There is a big difference between the Godhead and the Satanic Trinity doctrine. 1Ti 6:14 that thou keep the commandment, without spot, without reproach, until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ: 1Ti 6:15 which in its own times he shall show, who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings, and Lord of lords; 1Ti 6:16 who only hath immortality, dwelling in light unapproachable; whom no man hath seen, nor can see: to whom be honor and power eternal. Amen. Here it is Jesus who shows who is the blessed Potentate, or the Most High. You are correct the self-existent uncreated One God the Father cannot die, that is why he sent His Son to die. Your quote Mrs. White where she says, divinity did not shrink. That can be taken in many ways. We have to first get into our thick skulls, that Jesus Christ, our brother, was totally human. He got hungry, he got tired, he laughed and he cried, and he was tempted in all ways we are tempted. He was also divine in that he did not sin. He was the second Adam, meaning that Adam had a choice not to sin but did. So too with Jesus, therefore Satan would have never tempted Him if Satan knew beyond a doubt that Jesus could have never sinned, then all of Satan's attempts would have been futile. Satan said, if you are "truely the Son of God" do this and that. Jesus as a human could have bent under pressure, but since he was sinless, his divinity did not shrink. We can be just like Jesus too. We can become sinless and become divine, but that does not make us God(s). The trinity doctrine teaches that Jesus did not actually die. That is false. He did die. If Jesus did not die as the Catholics say, and as you seem to say Mrs. White says, then this doctrine of the Trinity brings in immortality of the soul. Jesus did not raise himself from the grave, but the Father raised Him from the grave. Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: Romans does not say "if you confess that Jesus the Lord is co-equal with God and believe that in your heart, that he raised himself from the dead, thou shalt be saved",. Romans says what it says. There is a big difference between the Godhead and the Satanic Trinity doctrine. “Jesus is waiting to breathe upon all his disciples, and give them the inspiration of his sanctifying spirit, and transfuse the vital influence from himself to his people. He would have them understand that henceforth they cannot serve two masters. Their lives cannot be divided. Christ is to live in his human agents, and work through their faculties, and act through their capabilities. Their will must be submitted to his will, they must act with his spirit, that it may be no more they that live, but Christ that liveth in them. Jesus is seeking to impress upon them the thought that in giving his Holy Spirit he is giving to them the glory which the Father has given him, that he and his people may be one in God.” {E. G. White,Signs of the Times, October 3, 1892 par. 4} Jesus is Giving us his Holy Spirit. We must act with his spirit. Therefore when Jesus said "I and my Father are one" He is saying that he is acting within the spirit of His Father. We can act within the Spirit of Jesus. Notice Mrs White says...."he is giving them the glory which the Fahter has Given him, that he and His people may be one in God. The Holy Spirit is not an actual person, but the personality of God, given to his Son then given to us. What a wonderful gift that we can become one with God and be holy and divine here on earth, and even be higher than the angels in Heaven for eternity. Do not let the Trinity doctrine mask this truth from you. Thus saith the Lord
written by Paul Steve, March 26, 2009
What is the difference between the GodHead and the trinity?
Trinity is defined in more than one way. The most common is: Three persons in one being (person) or three in one person God. Biblcally we see three persons who are one not in one person, but one in unity hence three in unity or Three person Godhead is appropriate. Since the word Trinity is not found in the bible, many get uneasy to use it. So it's preferable to use the term Godhead. There are three references to the “Godhead” in scripture, each translated from a slightly different word from the next: Acts 17:29 – Greek: theios (Strong’s 2304) Romans 1:20 Greek: theiotes (Strong’s 2305) Colossians 2:9 Greek: theotes (Strong’s 2320) The word theios as it is used in Acts 17:29 is also translated “divine” in 2 Peter 1:3-4. According to Strong’s, the meaning here is “godlike, divinity.” Simply it means deity and there are three persons who are ascribed true diety in scriptures. Another variant to trinity is the oneness doctrine - They define God as one person who is manifested in three different forms (not three seperate persons). Therefore Father is the Son and also the Spirit - one person wearing different hats). Then there are also ppl who beleive Father and the Son are persons. Holy Spirit is a force like the Jehovah witnesses. WLC believes in another variant of Godhead as you may already know. What is biblcal is Three person Godhead and that is why EGW speaks of the the Holy Ghost being the third member of the Godhead. Three are not one in one person, the Trio is one in unity. Hope this helps, God bless you
 written by Lee Darin, March 26, 2009
I'm wondering what is the difference between the GodHead and the trinity?
Because Sister White said about the Holy Ghost being the third member of the Godhead?
written by Paul Steve, March 26, 2009
1) Response: Could the Father experience extreme anguish if Jesus was not His literal Son? This doesn't make bibilcal sense.If we truly loved someone we would feel anguish if we had to deliver them to death even if they were not our literal son. For example, we are told that David loved Jonathan in this way and they were totally unrelated to one another: "Now Jonathan again caused David to vow, because he loved him; for he loved him as he loved his own soul." (I Samuel 20:17) The Father and the Son were in an intimate love relationship throughout eternity. Jesus would not have to be the Father's literal Son for
the Father to feel extreme anguish in giving Him up. 2) If Jesus is absolutely co-equal with "the blessed and only Potentate Who only hath immortality" (1 Tim. 6:15,16), who absolutely cannot die, then Jesus did not truly die: Response: Regarding the argument that if Jesus was co-eternal with the Father He could not die, this would be true if Jesus had not adopted humanity. It was because the divinity of Jesus could not die that He took humanity upon Himself. Notice the following telling statements from Ellen White: "I am the resurrection, and the life." He who had said, "I lay down my life, that I might take it again," came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Humanity died: divinity did not die. In His divinity, Christ possessed the power to break the bonds of death. He declares that He has life in Himself to quicken whom He will. 5BC 1113 "When Christ was crucified, it was His human nature that died. Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible." 5BC 1113 Further: Co-equal does not mean identical in power; Jesus had clearly set aside certain of His powers/rights/prerogatives as deity for the purpose of completing His mission in incarnation (John 17:5; Philippians 2:6-8; John 5:19, 30; Hebrews 2:14, etc.). 3) Response: Regarding the third objection to Godhead that the Holy Spirit was simply the glorified manifestation of Jesus (in other words, the same person at different time periods) the Bible clearly proves otherwise. The Holy Spirit existed before the glorified manifestation of Jesus. He was present at the baptism of Jesus as a separate entity (Matthew 3:16, 17) and on other occasions of His ministry before His glorification. 4) The fourth reason for World's Last Chance rejection of the Trinity is because it destroys the sanctuary truth: Response: The fourth objection ignores the fact that Jesus is pleading before the Father as a human being. This is a logical argument that simply does not hold water. I simply can't understand why one divine entity who has become a human being and represents us, cannot plead before another in behalf of sinful humanity? God bless you in your study of the inspired word.
written by Paul Steve, March 25, 2009
-----we must base Mrs. White on the Bible not the other way around----
The forum is titled as “Solid Proof that Ellen White Never Became Trinitarian”. This is of course true if Trinity is defined as three in one person. However, she clearly believed in a “three person distinct Godhead”. And True, We must base our doctrines on the bible and the bible shows a trio for sure. See: http://everlasting-gospel.blog...is-it.html http://www.remnantofgod.org/RM-error.htm There is enough evidence in scriptures, but one can provide many excuses denying this truth the same way many deny the doctrine of investigative judgment and the sanctuary doctrine saying there is no explicit evidence. -----There is no clear trinitarian formula in the Bible. In cannot be proven by the Bible, no matter how Mrs. Whites writtings are constructed. If Mrs. White believed in the Trinity she would have came out and said it. If Jesus wanted us to know of it, he would have told it to his disciples. The apostles would have told us.--- I the bibel we see the mention of Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. All are identified as God. Spirit who pleads with God just like Christ ALSO pleads (Rom 8:34;27) is another comforter. So we see a three person Godhead if we study carefully. ----It took hundreds of years for the Catholic church to come up with the trinity. It is the doctrine/dogma by which all other Catholic doctrines are based. It is pagan, and it is of Satan.---- Catholic church came up with the Three in one person theology. That is pagan. Not three person Godhead. -----If its not in the Bible and the Holy Bible alone, then I will not believe it. No matter what else anyone else says. I would rather die than worship a three headed false God.---- Did you see that your belief leads to a rejection of the Spirit of prophesy? No wonder the devil is so angry with the remnant that keeps the commandments of God and hold to the testimony. We base everything on the bible. Bible says believe in Gods prophets. We believe in the gift of prophesy because the bible confirms the gift. And the gift of prophesy confirms “Three person Godhead”. Do you realize that for every genuine there is a counterfeit. Three in one catholic teaching is a counterfeit to three person Godhead.Also, Godhead means “true diety”. Three person Godhead does not mean one person with three heads either. ----- (KJVR) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;------ Jesus is the “one” & “only Lord”. But Jesus is not the "one and only" Lord, Father is also Lord (Deut 10:17; Mattew 11:25). Same way the Father is not the one and only true God, Jesus is also (Exodus 3:2,4,6) – see http://everlasting-gospel.blog...is-it.html Mark 12:28-32 "…Which is the first commandment of all? And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The LORD our God is ONE LORD…And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:" 1 Corinthians 8:6 "But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and ONE LORD Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him." If the Father is the only God in the Godhead, and He is called LORD in the first passage, why I ask would Jesus not be considered God when He is called LORD in the second passage? God bless you bro as you study the word.
written by Real Michaud, March 25, 2009
we must base Mrs. White on the Bible not the other way around.
There is no clear trinitarian formula in the Bible. In cannot be proven by the Bible, no matter how Mrs. Whites writtings are constructed. If Mrs. White believed in the Trinity she would have came out and said it. If Jesus wanted us to know of it, he would have told it to his disciples. The apostles would have told us. It took hundreds of years for the Catholic church to come up with the trinity. It is the doctrine/dogma by which all other Catholic doctrines are based. It is pagan, and it is of Satan. If its not in the Bible and the Holy Bible alone, then I will not believe it. No matter what else anyone else says. I would rather die than worship a three headed false God. 1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, one mediator also between God and men, himself man, Christ Jesus, (American Standard Version) (KJVR) For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; That is all I believe.
written by Paul Steve, March 24, 2009
Arguement: If Mrs. White actually believed that the Holy Spirit is the third head, an acutaly person then she is wrong and it is not according to the Holy Bible.
Resposne: Bro, I have made my points very clear with regard to the Holy Spirit. She mentions Holy Spirit to be a eternal person who has a distinct personality from Christ. EGW is correct and so is the bible: There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers --the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit--Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905) Notice the following few bible texts: Ephesians 4:4-6 (4) There is ONE body, and one Spirit, even as ye are called in one hope of your calling; (5) ONE Lord, one faith, one baptism, (6) ONE God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. Note carefully that there be no misunderstanding. These three text show very clearly that there is “one” of each… there is one Spirit, one Lord which we know is Jesus Christ, and one God the Father. Isaiah 48:16 Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, and his Spirit, hath sent me. In this text we have three individuals… the Lord God, the Spirit, and Jesus Christ (sent me). The construction of this sentence shows that each one of these are separate (the Lord God and… sent…). There is no doubt, therefore, that there are three in the heavenly Godhead. Colossians 2:2 That their hearts might be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of GOD, and of the FATHER, and of CHRIST. Once again, we have a “trio”. But, did you see how Paul mentions the Father and Christ by name (or title if you wish) in this verse? Who then is the other individual mentioned in this verse? Who is this “God?” The answer is clear enough that it’s the THIRD member of the heavenly trio, the Holy Spirit WHO HAS A DISTINCT PERSONALITY. Acts 5:1-3 But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the HOLY GHOST, and to keep back part of the price of the land? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto GOD. Arguemnt: But there are several other quotes such as this: Christ is our Guide and Comforter. 2SM-270, 271, 6BC-1076. Here she points to Jesus as the Comforter. Bro, we have look in to ALL her texts. She says he is a person. Has personality. Is distinct. Is eternal. He was in the hevenly courts. That is too much to miss. The Bible is very clearly that in John 14:16, 17, 25, 26; 16:7, 13, 14 Jesus promises to send another comforter (another paraclete) to carry forward His work after He leaves. Jesus is the first paraclete ("one called beside") and the Holy Spirit is "another" paraclete. Here is unambiguous evidence that the Holy Spirit is a separate personage from Jesus and yet very closely connected with Him. Christ truly is the "everlasting Father and the Comforter" but not in person. See also: http://everlasting-gospel.blog...deity.html
written by Paul Steve, March 24, 2009
EGW — NO: "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." (Letter 32, 1999, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p.1129).
Here is a classic example of you ignoring other EGW texts. EGW clearly says, It was Christ “that revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos, and proclaimed, "I am, the Almighty."-RH, February 18, 1896 par. 4 Bro, are you telling me that EGW is contradicting when she says in one place Christ is Almighty and in another place, not? So… why did Ellen White then say that Jesus is “not the Lord God Almighty?” Lets take another look at the Letter 32, 1999, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p.1129: “The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one.” If you read the entire passage in context, it would have been clear that she was saying that Christ was not God the Father [Almighty], but rather that he was God the Son [Almighty - see above], co-equal with the Father. In fact, if you read some more context, you will notice that through the entire article she repeatedly says that Jesus is God… notice: “But although Christ's divine glory was for a time veiled and eclipsed by His assuming humanity, yet He did not cease to be God when He became man. …Equal with the Father. Yet the stamp of divinity was upon His humanity. See the link: http://adventist-defense-leagu...t-god.html Argument: That means that Jesus is not Jehovah God, he is the divine Son of God. He is divine, but not the Most High. Response: Sorry this is not true. Jesus is - Almighty God Jehovah; "Jehovah is the name given to Christ. 'Trust ye in the Lord forever; for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength.'"—The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899 , p. 2.
written by Paul Steve, March 24, 2009
Argument: The days of the Son of God had a beginning, but he was not created. It cannot be explained.
Response: This is the belief that Jesus was at one time non-existent; he wasn’t created but begotten. When was he begotten? Psalms 2:7, "I will declare the decree: the LORD hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee Is this passage saying Jesus was at one time non-existent, and in turn had to be brought into existence by the Father? Or is this passage prophecying that at some time in the future, Christ will be "begotten" of the Father in some way. Note the following New Testament passage that actually refers to Psalms 2:7... Acts 13:33, "God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee." According to Acts 13:33, Jesus was indeed "begotten" on the day He became the first-fruits of all them that slept in the grave! This make perfect sense seeing how He was unable to be "begotten" into existence in any other sense of the word. Some are saying Psalms 2:7 states Jesus was "non-existent" at one time, yet Paul says Psalms 2:7 is saying Jesus was begotten by the Father on the very day He rose Him from the grave. No cloud of confusion here. See: 1 Corinthians 15:20, "But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept." EGW confirms: "Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God.... In speaking of his pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God. He to whose voice the Jews were then listening had been with God as one brought up with Him" -Signs of the Times, Aug. 29, 1900. {Ev 615.2} The days of the Son of God had no beginning for “there never was a time when He was not in close fellowship with the eternal God”.
written by Real Michaud, March 24, 2009
Christ is also uncreated: "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"—NOT A SON BY CREATION, as were the angels. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}
I hope you are not insinuating that I believe that the only-begotten Son of God was created? I never ever once in my posts wrote that the Son of God was created. He was born of God. The days of the Son of God had a beginning, but he was not created. It cannot be explained. EGW — NO: "The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty." (Letter 32, 1999, quoted in the Seventh-day Adventist Bible Commentary, Vol. 5, p.1129). That means that Jesus is not Jehovah God, he is the divine Son of God. The Son of God who is now the Son of Man is next in authority to God. He is not the Lord God Almighty. He is divine, but not the Most High. Next.... "The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God'" [1 Corinthians 2:11] (Evangelism, p. 617)." Here is where we run into a problem, does Mrs. White believe that the Holy Spirit is the personality of God, and in the third person gramatically, or does she actualy believe that it a seperate entity in the Godhead, now called the Trinity? If Mrs. White actually believed that the Holy Spirit is the third head, an acutaly person then she is wrong and it is not according to the Holy Bible. But there are several other quotes such as this: 8."But if the Spirit of Him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, He that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by His spirit that dwelleth in you (Rom.8:11). 0 how precious are these words to every bereaved soul! Christ is our Guide and Comforter, who comforts us in all our tribulations ...The vitalizing power of the Spirit of Christ dwelling in the mortal body binds every believing soul to Jesus Christ ...By the power of the Saviour that dwelt in them while living and because they were partakers of the divine nature, they are brought forth from the dead.."2SM-270, 271, 6BC-1076. Here she points to Jesus as the Comforter. The Spirit of Him, is Jehovah God the uncreated self-existent one. Now that Jesus is back in Glory, he can be omnipresent, but he still does not know when he (Jesus) is returning to earth, not the angles, not even the Son but only the Father. Mar 13:25 and the stars shall be falling from heaven, and the powers that are in the heavens shall be shaken. Mar 13:26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in clouds with great power and glory. Mar 13:27 And then shall he send forth the angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven. Mar 13:28 Now from the fig tree learn her parable: when her branch is now become tender, and putteth forth its leaves, ye know that the summer is nigh; Mar 13:29 even so ye also, when ye see these things coming to pass, know ye that he is nigh, even at the doors. Mar 13:30 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass away, until all these things be accomplished. Mar 13:31 Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away. Mar 13:32 But of that day or that hour knoweth no one, not even the angels in heaven, neither the Son, but the Father. Mar 13:33 Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is. Therefore Jesus is not all knowing. But only the Father is all knowing, therefore making Jesus not the Lord God Almighty. He is not coequal with the Father in the sense that he has always been. Jesus is the Ancient of Days, but not above time in the sense that He never had a beginning. No amount of twisting Ellen White, or rewritting Ellen White will do. We should base Ellen White on the Bible not the other way around. The Roman Catholic Church thinks to change times and laws also. The Law of God is Love. His Government is based on it. The heirarchy in Heaven will never change. Ever. God, the his divine Son, then the angles, the humanity. Period and in that order. Not even the Satanic Roman Catholic doctrine of the Trinity can change that.
written by Kevin McGill, March 24, 2009
Paul Steve thank you for sharing the link to http://everlasting-gospel.blog...in-ot.html it is really packed with information. Your points on the Godhead you bring up are relevant, I will be interested to see how other WLC members interpreted them. I went through the online bible study this site has on the Godhead and I must say I was beginning to be convinced that the Godhead did not include the Holy Spirit in the three in once Adventist understanding of the trinity I grew up believing. However Ellen White's statements, and the biblical support shows to me how this understanding is still correct. I know some people from this site are currently reexamining this issue, so in context to the points you have made I will be interested to see what they conclude. God bless bro
And keep listening to audioverse.org...the sermons are really impacting. God is so good. Kev
written by Paul Steve, March 23, 2009
Argument: “Christ the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.” {E. G. White, The (188 Great Controversy, p. 493} 1888 . Might I ask if the Holy Spirit is an actual person, diety, or representation, manifestation, of a third head, how come only the 'only begotten of God, who was one in purpose, character and nature the only one who could be shown all the counsels and purposes of God. Where is the third person of the Godhead?
Response: Lets quote the entire paragraph to see the context: BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF EVIL there was peace and joy throughout the universe. All was in perfect harmony with the Creator’s will. Love for God was supreme, love for one another impartial. Christ the Word, the Only Begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father, —one in nature,in character, and in purpose, —the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God. {E. G.White, The (188 Great Controversy, p. 493} 1888 Te key to understandint his text is, it says BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF EVIL. BEFORE THE ENTRANCE OF EVIL, it was Christ that entered into all the counsels and purposes of God since he was the one who was revealing the Father to the angels. However, the eternal Holy Spirit (who has a different manner of appearance and operation than do the other two members of the Godhead. In fact, the Holy Spirit has chosen a non-appearance,and a mode of operation that is almost transparent! ) joined AFTER the entrance of evil. Notice EGW statement that proves the after notion: This work began in the heavenly courts . .The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin.”—Counsels on Health, 222. FURTHER The “Holy Spirit”—would probably not have been concerned to have His existence known until our world was created! (IF WE See Patriarchs and Prophets, 36, and rest of chapter.) From what we read in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, it is unlikely that the angels and unfallen worlds knew of His existence in those earlier ages! (Keep in mind that, before the false charges of Lucifer began to be made, the created intelligences did not even realize there was a law that they lived under. There are indications that they did not realize that Christ was divine until the rebellion began.) The fact the the Holy Spirit is not seen as active before sin does not mean he did not exist as a being. This is similar to the argument against the Sabbath, when people say that there is no mention of Sabbath keeping in Genesis or of Sabbath instructions in the New Testament. There was not much mention, because there was no question! The problem that began in heaven was because of Jesus, not the HS, so he is not the theme. But his existance is evident. add to these quotes you have the following: "The Holy Spirit has a personality, else He could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else He could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. 'For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God'" [1 Corinthians 2:11] (Evangelism, p. 617). These words make it clear he must be a divine being himself, else, how could he witness to our spirits, or search out the secrets of God? SHe said that Christ was the only being to enter into the counsels of God, but according to this quote, so can the Holy Spirit, who searches the secrets "hidden in the MIND of God." Its like the bible, we must consider other portions of the word (Spirit of Prophesy) and add them to everything else to get a broader picture so that nothing contradicts.
written by Paul Steve, March 23, 2009
Argument: Who is the self-existent, uncreated One? Jehovah. Who is Jehovah? The Father is the self-existent uncreated ONE Jehovah.
Response: Who is Jehovah? Only the Father? Nope, Jehovah is also the Name of Christ. "Jehovah is the name given to Christ. 'Behold, God is my salvation,' writes the prophet Isaiah; 'I will trust, and not be afraid; for the Lord JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; He also is become my salvation….Trust ye in the Lord forever; for in the Lord JEHOVAH is everlasting strength.'"—The Signs of the Times, May 3, 1899 , p. 2. See also: http://everlasting-gospel.blog...in-ot.html It is also interesting that Jehovah says in Isaiah 42:8 “I am the LORD (JHVH): that is my name: and my glory will I not give to another, neither my praise to graven images.” See also - Isaiah 48:11 “For mine own sake, even for mine own sake, will I do it: for how should my name be polluted? and I will not give my glory unto another”. If God shares his glory which belongs only to him, how is it that God himself says here in Isaiah 48:11 that he does not share his glory with anyone? Since we can clearly see that the one who says he is Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:8, and in Revelation 1:8 he calls himself the “Almighty,” isn’t it true that indeed Jesus is called the “Almighty” in verse 8? And who else is almighty but Jehovah God? Argument: “Jehovah, the eternal, self-existent, uncreated One, Himself the Source and Sustainer of all, is alone entitled to supreme reverence and worship.” {E. G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 305} 1890 Response: Now don’t forget the UNITY principle. We have already seen that Christ is Almighty and is also Jehovah. But let’s dig more deeper. Christ is also uncreated: "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"—NOT A SON BY CREATION, as were the angels. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3} Christ is also the eternal one: “He was equal with God, infinite and omnipotent . . He is the ETERNAL, self-existent Son.”—Evangelism, 615. Christ is also self existent: “Christ is the pre-existent, self-existent Son of God. In speaking of His pre-existence, Christ carries the mind back through dateless ages. He assures us that there NEVER WAS A TIME WHEN HE WAS NOT in close fellowship with the eternal God.”—Evangelism, 615. Finally, Father is not the only one entitled to supreme reverence and worship. Son is also worshipped. Arguemnt: It says ever here by Mrs. White, that Christ our Savior in the days he was seperated from Glory, was obedient to the law of God the Father. Response: This is true. This is because “as a man he humbled himself” (Philippians 2:5-9) and depended upon God; remember he is our example. Further, Father, Son and the Spirit operates in a relational context and not a performance context. They esteem each other and they depend on each other and they work in unity. The Father operates through the Son and the Son operates through the Holy Spirit. This teaches the law of service. God not only asks us to serve the interests of others but He actually illustrates it by the different roles in the Godhead. Ellen White, for example, has said that Jesus is the expression of the thought of God. In other words, the Father thinks and Jesus expresses the thoughts in words. Marvelous are the mysteries of the Godhead. However We must also beware of going beyond what has been revealed lest our finite minds become belittled and confused.
written by Paul Steve, March 23, 2009
Argument: "The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared: "I and My Father are one." (9T pages 67-6). How are they one Steve? They are one through the Holy Spirit!
Response: Since Father & Son each have a distinct personality, they are not one and the same person. And since “Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person (Manuscript 66, 1899 Evangelism, 616) who has a “personality” and since Holy Spirit “personifies Christ, yet [Holy Spirit] is a distinct personality (8 Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324) Christ and the Spirit are not one and the same person. To say otherwise is to destroy the personality of God or Christ. Argument: Mr. Steve you have to admit that everything you have post concerning Mrs. Whites writtings are totally taken out of context concerning the whole of her writtings. Take this writting for instance and see if this measures up to Ellen G. White believing in a Trinity of Co-Eternal beings, of one substance but three different personalities. Let me share a biblical principle with you before I respond to your issues. When we say number ONE, we think number one in terms of a numerical. However, in Genesis 2:24, when a man and wife get together, they become ONE, but yet they are two separate persons; One therefore implies UNITY. Jesus said "I and the father are one" (John 10:30). Once again, one here means unity because Jesus and the Father are two separate persons and yet part of one Godhead. Want more proof? 1 Cor. 8:6 & Jude 4 says, Jesus is the “one” & “only Lord”. But Jesus is not the "one and only" Lord, Father is also Lord (Deut 10:17; Mattew 11:25). Therefore in scriptures, the words ONE or ONLY confirms UNITY (ONE) when applied to Father, Son & the Holy Spirit. Response to the argument: Bro, you are telling me that I am not taking “whole of her writings to come to a conclusion”. But are YOU really doing that? When Spirit of Prophesy says Holy Spirit is a person just as God is a person and yet is a distinct personality from Christ, you totally ignore this text to SUPPORT your preconceived idea. It is an understanding that destroys the personality of Christ. Let me also reiterate that when I speak of Godhead, it is not the weird Catholic three-gods-in-one theory that I refer to which makes Godhead no persons. If you want to use the word trinity (I prefer Godhead), then it is defined as the three-Person Godhead for which I have already made a strong case in it’s proper context. Now let me answer your other points taking Mrs. Whites other statements on the subject which u have ignored so that I wilL be considering “whole of her writings to come to a conclusion” so that NOTHING CONTRADICTS. Argument: Words have meaning and the Son of God means exactly that, the Son of God. Response: Jesus is God’s Son by nature (What the Father is, the Son is also), whereas we are God’s sons by adoption or by creation (John 1:12). EGW says "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3} Argument: The Father alone is the one true Almighty God above all. Response: Father is not the one and only true Almighty, Christ is also, the same way Christ is not the “one and only Lord” (see above). See what EGW says: What a Savior we have! IT WAS HE that revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos, and proclaimed, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the ALMIGHTY." None but just such an EVER-LIVING, mighty God, could pay the ransom to save sinners from going down into the pit of death.” -RH, February 18, 1896 par. 4 Note: “None but just such an EVER-LIVING, mighty God, could pay the ransom to save sinners”. Eternal death can only be paid by a person who has eternal life; that means one who has no beginning; an uncreated being whom EGW calls “not a son by creation” {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3}.
written by Real Michaud, March 22, 2009
"The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared: "I and My Father are one." (9T pages 67-6
How are they one Steve? They are one through the Holy Spirit! Act 10:38 even Jesus of Nazareth, how God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power: who went about doing good, and healing all that were oppressed of the devil; for God was with him. Here in Acts 10 we see that God anointed him with the Holy Spirit and with power. The presence of God the Father was with him, the personality of the Father was with him, which is also the power of the Father, which is the Holy Spirit. Rom 5:5 and hope putteth not to shame; because the love of God hath been shed abroad in our hearts through the Holy Spirit which was given unto us. Rom 5:6 For while we were yet weak, in due season Christ died for the ungodly. Rom 5:7 For scarcely for a righteous man will one die: for peradventure for the good man some one would even dare to die. Rom 5:8 But God commendeth his own love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, shall we be saved from the wrath of God through him. Rom 5:10 For if, while we were enemies, we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, shall we be saved by his life; Rom 5:11 and not only so, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. Rom 5:12 Therefore, as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin; and so death passed unto all men, for that all sinned: - The love of God is in our hearts because of what? The Holy Spirit. The Spirit is the Love of God, it emminates from Him, it is Him that is in Christ, and it is Christ that is in us. Mr. Steve you have to admit that everything you have post concerning Mrs. Whites writtings are totally taken out of context concerning the whole of her writtings. Take this writting for instance and see if this measures up to Ellen G. White believing in a Trinity of Co-Eternal beings, of one substance but three different personalities. “Jehovah, the eternal, self-existent, uncreated One, Himself the Source and Sustainer of all, is alone entitled to supreme reverence and worship.” {E. G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 305} 1890 Who is the self-existent, uncreated One? Jehovah. Who is Jehovah? “The Son of God shared the Father's throne, and the glory of the eternal, self-existent One encircled both. About the throne gathered the holy angels, a vast, unnumbered throng--"ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" (Revelation 5:11.), the most exalted angels, as ministers and subjects, rejoicing in the light that fell upon them from the presence of the Deity.” {E. G. White, Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 36} 1890 The Father is the self-existent uncreated ONE Jehovah. Words have meaning and the Son of God means exactly that, the Son of God. The Father alone is the one true Almighty God above all. “God, as the supreme ruler of the universe has ever required prompt and unquestioning obedience. Even Christ, in the days of his flesh, was obedient to the law of the Father.” {E. G. White, Signs of the Times, July 22, 1886 par. 2} It says ever here by Mrs. White, that Christ our Savior in the days he was seperated from Glory, was obedient to the law of God the Father. The self-existent ruler of the whole universe is supreme. Above all and in all who believe in Him through his Son the man Christ Jesus. “Christ the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father,--one in nature, in character, and in purpose,--the only being in all the universe that could enter into all the counsels and purposes of God.” {E. G. White, The (188 Great Controversy, p. 493} 1888 Might I ask if the Holy Spirit is an actual person, diety, or representation, manifestation, of a third head, how come only the 'only begotten of God, who was one in purpose, character and nature the only one who could be shown all the counsels and purposes of God. Where is the third person of the Godhead? The Trinity? If the Holy Spirit a co-equal person, where is he in the counsels of God. Why are there secrets from him if he does exist and he is so important? The answer is, is that he doesn't exist seperatly or as simply a force or a manifestation. The Holy Spirit is the actual personality of the self-existent One Himself. Jehovah God. Our Heavenly Father. For God is love, says the Word. God loved so much he GAVE his 'only begotten' Son. His only begotten. The Spirit is not begotten. It is the Life of Christ living in us by the Fathers Spirit. His Holy Spirit! Thus says the Lord God Almight in love.
written by Paul Steve, March 20, 2009
Is God, the Father and God, the Son persons? You know the answer to this. But is the Holy Spirit a person as God [the Father or the son]is a person?
“We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)” Evangelism, 616. “The Holy Spirit has a personality, else he could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else he could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. . . .” (Evangelism, 617, is indexed as Manuscript 20, February 7, 1906.) How many living persons are in the Godhead? There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)” Evangelism, 615. Is Holy Spirit the First person of the Godhead or is he the Second person of the Godhead or is he the Third person of the Godhead? “Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead.” The Desire of Ages, 671. “Evil ..could only be restrained ..by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead.” Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 392, Is Christ a DISTINCT PERSONALITY, yet one with the Father? “The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father.”—1 Selected Messages, 247 (Review and Herald, April 5, 1906). "The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared: "I and My Father are one." (9T pages 67-6 “Christ, ..‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.’ Isaiah 9:6. His goings forth have been from of old, from everlasting.’ Micah 5:2.”—Patriarchs and Prophets, 34. Notice: Christ is called the everlasting Father, yet he is a distinct person from the Father. If you say Christ and Father are one person, you destroy the personality of God and Christ. This is exactly what the ‘three gods in one’ theology destroys. Is the Holy Spirit is a DISTINCT PERONALITY, yet one with Christ? “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.” Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324 Note: Christ is the “Everlasting Father” ( Isaiah 9:6). But not the Father in person but one in unity. Christ is also the “ Counselor (comforter)”, but not the Comforter in person, but one unity. Quoting your statement: “The Holy Spirit is not an energy or a force, but the power, personality, and presence of Christ in our souls”. My brother, this teaching is effectively destroying the personality of Christ since Holy Spirit “personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.” 8 Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324. Did the Third person of the Godhead who has distinct personality from Christ ALWAYS exist from eternity AS A SEPARATE PEPRONALITY? Or did He come into existence sometime later? “The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.”—Evangelism, 616. This work began in the heavenly courts . .The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin.”—Counsels on Health, 222. “The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son,and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.”— Upward Look, 148. Conclusion: Ellen White believed in Three Godhead
written by Paul Steve, March 20, 2009
Is God, the Father and God, the Son PERSONS? You know the answer to this. But is Holy Spirit a person as God [the Father or Son] is a person?
“We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899.Evangelism, 616. “The Holy Spirit has a personality, else he could not bear witness to our spirits and with our spirits that we are the children of God. He must also be a divine person, else he could not search out the secrets which lie hidden in the mind of God. . . .” (Evangelism, 617, is indexed as Manuscript 20, February 7, 1906.) How many living persons are in the Godhead? There are THREE living PERSONS of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.—Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, pp. 62, 63. (1905)” Evangelism, 615. Is Holy Spirit the First person of the Godhead or is He the Second person of the Godhead or is he the THIRD person of the Godhead? “Sin could be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the Third Person of the Godhead.” The Desire of Ages, 671. “Evil had been accumulating for centuries and could only be restrained and resisted by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit, the Third Person of the Godhead.” Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, 392, Is Christ a DISTINCT PERSONALITY, yet one with the Father? “The Lord Jesus Christ, the divine Son of God, existed from eternity, a distinct person, yet one with the Father.”—1 Selected Messages, 247 (Review and Herald, April 5, 1906). "The Father and the Son each have a personality. Christ declared: "I and My Father are one." pages 67-6 “Christ, the Word, the only begotten of God, was one with the eternal Father—one in nature, in character, in purpose . . ‘His name shall be called Wonderful, Counselor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father’ Isaiah 9:6. Patriarchs and Prophets, 34. Notice: Christ is called the everlasting Father, yet he is a distinct person from the Father. If you say Christ and Father are one person, you destroy the personality of God and Christ. This is exactly what the ‘three gods in one’ theology destroys. If one syas “two gods in one”, it still destroys the personality of God. Is the Holy Spirit a DISTINCT PERONALITY, yet one with Christ? “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a DISTINCT personality.” Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324 Note: Christ is the “Everlasting Father” ( Isaiah 9:6). But not the Father in person. Christ is also the “ Counselor (comforter)”, but not the Comforter in person, but one unity. Quoting Michaud statement: “The Holy Spirit is not an energy or a force, but the power, personality, and presence of Christ in our souls”. My brother, this teaching is effectively destroying the personality of Christ since Holy Spirit “personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.” 8 Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324. "Those who seek to remove the old landmarks are not holding fast; they are not remembering how they have received and heard. Those who try to bring in theories that would remove the pillars of our faith concerning the sanctuary or concerning the PERSONALITY OF GOD or of Christ, are working as blind men." (E.G. White, Manuscript Releases 760 9.5) Did the Third person of the Godhead who has a distinct personality from Christ (who is the second person of the Godhead) ALWAYS exist from eternity AS A SEPARATE PEPRONALITY with Father & the Son? Or did He come into existence sometime later? “The ETERNAL heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.”—Evangelism, 616. This work began in the heavenly courts . .The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin.”—Counsels on Health, 222. “The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son,and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.”— Upward Look, 148. RECOMENDED LINK: http://everlasting-gospel.blogspot.com/ http://www.sdadefend.com/Defend-foundation/Holy-Spirit.htm http://www.whiteestate.org/issues/The-Trinity.pdf http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-Resource Library/Defending-the-Godhead.pdf https://stepstolife.org/php/view_article.php?article_id=1604 MAY GOD BLESS YOU as you study the inspired word. Paul
written by Paul Steve, March 20, 2009
- The Spirit is the person of Jesus pleading for us.
Response: Rom 8:34 – Says Christ “ALSO” plead for us. That is because there is ANOTHER person who is pleading for us and that is the Spirit according to Rom 8:27-28. - The Holy Spirit is the power of God, not a seperate person. Response: “We need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds.—Manuscript 66, 1899. (From a talk to the students at the Avondale School.)” Evangelism, 616. Holy Spirit has a distinct personality from Christ (to deny this is to deny the personality of God) - “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet is a distinct personality.” Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324 Further Christ is “the power of God” ( 1 Cor 1:24), so is the Holy Spirit (Luke 1:35). However, Christ is no more mere power in 1 Cor 1:24 than the Holy Spirit is mere power in Luke 1:35. Both are persons. (See my response above) - When we grieve the Spirit, we are actually greiving the Holy Father himself. When we lie to the Spirit, we actualy lie to the Holy Father himself. Response: True, this because Godhead is one in unity. To honor the Son is to honor [God] the Father. To lie to the Spirit is to lie to God. This does not detract the distinct personalities in the heavenly trio. - Eph 6:18 Here we are told to pray in the Spirit, not to the Spirit. Why? Because it is not a seperate person. Response: Biblically we are told to pray to the Father. This text does not detract from his personality, it simply says we are to pray in [the power of the] Spirit. (See also Rev 4:2; Rev 17:3) - Here Mrs. White says: 1."The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ." DA-805, U1-46. this means that the Spirit is the actual life of the man Christ Jesus living in you, through the Holy Spirit. How?, the Holy Spirit is the person of Christ given to him by his Father, and then given to us. It cannot be explained, but is is not another seperate person.We are not to speculate on these matters, but to trust that Christ can dwell in us. Answer: Notice: God the Father dwells in us: 2 Corinthians 6:16 (KJV) for ye are the temple of the living God; as God hath said, I will dwell in them, and walk in them; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. Christ dwells in us: Ephesians 3:17 (KJV) That Christ may dwell in your hearts by faith; that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, Indeed, Jesus tells them that both He and the Father will come unto them. “We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him." John 14:22-23. Holy Spirit dwells in us: 1 Corinthians 3:16 (KJV) 16 Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? And yet “The Holy Spirit is the Comforter, in Christ’s name. He personifies Christ, yet [Holy Spirit] is a distinct personality.” Manuscript Releases, vol. 20, 324 Do you notice that these three powers work in unity? Yes my brother, Christ dwells in us; Christ in you, the hope of glory (Colossians 1:27). Christ dwells in us through His representative who is the Holy Spirit-the comforter who is a distinct personality. The "Comfort" is a key word here. Jesus promised to come to them with comfort; yet He tells them that it will be through "another Comforter," someone else, that the comfort would be coming. It would be the other Person, the Holy Spirit, who would be bringing that comfort. "I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you." John 14:18. Indeed, Jesus tells them that both He and the Father will come unto them. "We will come unto him, and make Our abode with him." John 14:22-23. “Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit . . Have you been born again? Have you become a new being in Christ Jesus? Then cooperate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf.”—7 Bible Commentary, 908 (Manuscript 11, 1901).
written by Real Michaud, March 19, 2009
Who is Jesus pleading with? God the Father. Guess who Sprit is pleading with? The Spirit is pleading "for the saints according to the will of God. ". Therefore Sprit cannot be the Father or the Son or an extension of him, for he is not pleading with himself. Thus, the Spirit is a separate person jsut like Jesus who “also” pleads” for us.
Is the Holy Spirit a person, or just a force like gravity or magnetism? Let me answer both....the Spirit is the person of Jesus pleading for us. The Holy Spirit is the power of God, not a seperate person. When we grieve the Spirit, we are actually greiving the Holy Father himself. When we lie to the Spirit, we actualy lie to the Holy Father himself. Here Mrs. White says: 1."The impartation of the Spirit is the impartation of the life of Christ." DA-805, U1-46. this means that the Spirit is the actual life of the man Christ Jesus living in you, through the Holy Spirit. How?, the Holy Spirit is the person of Christ given to him by his Father, and then given to us. It cannot be explained, but is is not another seperate person.We are not to speculate on these matters, but to trust that Christ can dwell in us. Here is what Paul says: Eph 3:14 For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father, Eph 3:15 from whom every family in heaven and on earth is named, Eph 3:16 that he would grant you, according to the riches of his glory, that ye may be strengthened with power through his Spirit in the inward man; Eph 3:17 that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith; to the end that ye, being rooted and grounded in love, He is saying in essence that power through his Spirit is actualy Christ dwelling in our minds and hearts. Grounded in love, which is the character of God, because God is love. Eph 6:18 with all prayer and supplication praying at all seasons in the Spirit, and watching thereunto in all perseverance and supplication for all the saints, Here we are told to pray in the Spirit, not to the Spirit. Why? Because it is not a seperate person. Gal 2:20 I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I that live, but Christ living in me: and that life which I now live in the flesh I live in faith, the faith which is in the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself up for me. Here we see that Paul says that is Christ literally living in us. How? Through Christ's Spirit. Here is another verse that points out that God literally gives us Christ's Spirit. Gal 4:1 But I say that so long as the heir is a child, he differeth nothing from a bondservant though he is lord of all; Gal 4:2 but is under guardians and stewards until the day appointed of the father. Gal 4:3 So we also, when we were children, were held in bondage under the rudiments of the world: Gal 4:4 but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Gal 4:5 that he might redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons. Gal 4:6 And because ye are sons, God sent forth the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, Abba, Father. Gal 4:7 So that thou art no longer a bondservant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir through God. It says here that God the Father, the self-existent One, sent forth the Spirit of HIS SON into our hearts. It is Christ in us. Here Mrs. White explains it perfectly. 3."The influence of the Holy Spirit is the life of Christ in the soul" RH-10/26/97. 4."The Holy Spirit which proceeds from the only begotten Son of God binds the human agent, body, soul, spirit to the perfect human-divine nature of Christ" RH-4/5/06. The Holy Spirit is not an energy or a force, but the power, personality, and presence of Christ in our souls. For it says in Genesis. Gen 2:7 And Jehovah God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul. I hope this clears some things up
written by Paul Steve, March 18, 2009
We are told that the Holy Spirit has always been a member of the Three-part Godhead; and He is as eternal as the Father! Not just at Christ's incarnation! Therefore this does not affect the personality of god nor our other pillars. Sin could really be resisted and overcome only through the mighty agency of the third person of the Godhead. See this:
- “The eternal heavenly dignitaries—God, and Christ, and the Holy Spirit—arming them [the disciples] with more than mortal energy . . would advance with them to the work and convince the world of sin.”—Evangelism, 616. This work began in the heavenly courts . .The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave Themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin.”—Counsels on Health, 222. “The eternal Godhead—the Father, the Son,and the Holy Ghost—is involved in the action required to make assurance to the human agent.”— Upward Look, 148. Holy Spirit was tempted in the wilderness: Heb 3:7-9 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice, 8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness: 9 When your fathers tempted ME, proved me, and saw my works forty years. Exodus 17:2 (KJV)Wherefore the people did chide with Moses, and said, Give us water that we may drink. And Moses said unto them, Why chide ye with me? wherefore do ye tempt the LORD? V7 And he called the name of the place Massah, and Meribah, because of the chiding of the children of Israel, and because they tempted the LORD, saying, Is the LORD among us, or not? Isaiah 63:10 (KJV)10 But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them. Is. 48.16 And Come ye near unto me, hear ye this; I have not spoken in secret from the beginning; from the time that it was, there am I: and now the Lord GOD, AND his SPIRIT, hath sent me. The “Holy Spirit”—would probably not have been concerned to have His existence known until our world was created! (See Patriarchs and Prophets, 36, and rest of chapter.) From what we read in the Bible and Spirit of Prophecy, it is unlikely that the angels and unfallen worlds knew of His existence in those earlier ages! (Keep in mind that, before the false charges of Lucifer began to be made, the created intelligences did not even realize there was a law that they lived under. There are indications that they did not realize that Christ was divine until the rebellion began.)
written by Paul Steve, March 18, 2009
It is certainly true that Ellen White White Never believed in a three-gods-in-one theory. However she spoke of the three Godhead; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit:
“There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit—those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.”— Special Testimonies, Series B, No. 7, p. 63 (Ev 615). “The three powers of the Godhead have pledged Their might to carry out the purpose that God had in mind when He gave to the world the unspeakable gift of His Son.”—Review, July 18, 1907. “The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race,and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order fully to carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only begotten Son of God, should give Himself an offering for sin. What line can measure the depth of this love?”—Counsels on Health, 222. “The three powers of the Godhead, the Father, the Son, and Holy Spirit, are pledged to be their strength and their efficiency in their new life in Christ Jesus.”—Australian Union Conference Record, October 7, 1907. “We are to co-operate with the three highest powers in heaven,—the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost,—and these powers will work through us,making us workers together with God.”—Special Testimonies,Series B, No. 7, p. 51 (Ev 617).
written by Paul Steve, March 18, 2009
It was not the Godhead that they were opposed to; but it was the Trinity (defined as Three in one)! However, it should be mentioned that there were nine of those early writers (some of them laymen writing letters to the editor) who mentioned, in passing, that they did not personally believe that Christ had existed from all eternity. —However, none of them denied that He was the Divine Son of God. “Our pioneers” did not write one word in opposition to the three-Person Godhead; they only wrote against the weird Catholic three-gods-in-one theory, called “the trinity.” It is true that a few of our nineteenth-century believers did not realize that Jesus was eternal. There were others who did not know that the Holy Spirit existed.Some argued one way and others another way. There is nothing magical about the “pioneers.” They were normal people who came from all kinds of backgrounds and religions. Just as we have to keep learning today, they had to back then. Gradually, the Spirit of Prophecy clarified more and more points; and our people unified on those truths. Unfortunately, today many are slipping away from our Bible/Spirit of Prophecy foundations. The truths that we need today are found in the Inspired Writings, not in books and articles by our pioneers;— for, at times, they disagreed with one another.
See: http://www.sdadefend.com/MINDEX-Resource Library/Defending-the-Godhead.pdf http://everlasting-gospel.blogspot.com/ Paul
written by Kevin McGill, March 17, 2009
Now in addition to Ellen White, here are some quotes from the bible to think about...the following is from the 3abn website and is by Pastor Kenneth Cox:
Is the Holy Spirit a person, or just a force like gravity or magnetism? Some have suggested it is God’s Spirit, but does not have intellect or personality. But Scripture never refers to the Holy Spirit as “it.” The Bible says the Holy Spirit has emotions, intellect and a will. These characteristics belong to a person, not some impersonal force. On the day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit was given in His fullness, the church moved under His directions. The New Testament speaks of His leadership in these terms: “He commanded”(Acts 16:6,7), “He appointed” (Acts 20:2  , “He leads” (Acts 8:29). In communicating with the followers of Christ: “He speaks” (Revelation 2:7, Acts 13:2), “He intercedes” (Romans 8:26), and “testifies” about Jesus Christ (John 15:26). Does He have feelings? The Bible tells us the Holy Spirit can be “grieved,” insulted,” “lied to,” and blasphemed. All these acts and emotions have to do with a person. The Scriptures say that the Holy Spirit is God. As Peter spoke to Ananias he said, “Why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit…? You have not lied to men but to God.” Acts 5:3–4 (NAS). The attributes the Bible ascribes to the Holy Spirit only belong to God. Consider how the angel Gabriel talked with Mary. He said, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you.” Luke 1:35. Only by the omnipotent power of God could this miracle take place. Another characteristic of God is to be omniscient, which means to know all. The Bible says in 1Corinthians 2:10–11, “But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God…. Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.” The disciples were told that the Holy Spirit would teach them all things John 14:26. Revelation 5:6 speaks of the eyes of the Holy Spirit, “Seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth,” showing the Holy Spirit is aware of all that is taking place in the world. When Jesus was preparing to go back to heaven, He gave this promise to his disciples, “Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.” John 16:7. The disciples were soon to be taking the gospel in different directions. The coming of the Holy Spirit insured He would be able to be with each of them, supplying the comfort and power they needed for witnessing. David wrote of the Spirit being omnipresent in Psalm 139:7-10: “Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? If I ascend into heaven, You are there; if I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there. If I take the wings of the morning, and dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea, even there Your hand shall lead me, and Your right hand shall hold me.” God the Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit possess these attributes, which makes them God, as well as eternal. “How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered Himself without spot to God, cleanse your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?” Hebrews 9:14. The great commission given by Jesus includes all three: “Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.” Matthew 28:19. And there is more texts like this...My point is there is two valid sides concerning this issue, it is difficult for me and I believe any person to understand the nature of God. However on this topic "Solid Proof that Ellen White Never Became Trinitarian" It is important for me to evaluate thoroughly before I am able to come to such a conclusion. In love, with the pursuit of truth, ~Kevin Mcgill
written by Paul Steve, March 17, 2009
God has to be more than one person:
1 John 4:8 (KJV)He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love. Based on this definition or description of God, there has to be more than one person. Let us reason out that there is one God in one person. That would mean long time ago he was there and nobody else was there. How do we know? Because he is everlasting. So when God was by himself, can he fulfill the description of ‘love’? Yes or no? Can he be God of love? Love always gives. So whom did he love? Did he ended up loving himself. Self love is true true love? Does Love always takes two? 9Two are better than one, because they have a good return for their work:11 Also, if two lie down together, they will keep warm. But how can one keep warm alone? 12 Though one may be overpowered, two can defend themselves. A cord of three strands is not quickly broken. The bible gives an idea that two are better than one in a relationship. But what is better than two? Three. - For God to be righteous he must be three: Proverbs 12:17 (KJV)He that speaketh truth sheweth forth righteousness: but a false witness deceit. What is related to righteousness? Truth. Now how can someone testify himself ‘I am the truth’? Can a person testify he is truth by himself in a court? According to the bible one is not enough. Is that what God says? Isaiah 43:9 (KJV)Let all the nations be gathered together, and let the people be assembled: who among them can declare this, and shew us former things? let them bring forth their witnesses, that they may be justified: or let them hear, and say, IT IS TRUTH. In order to say ‘truth’, you need how many witnesses according to THE WORD OF God? Matthew 18:16 (KJV)But if he will not hear thee, then take with thee one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. Godhead:All three can say the same: Psalm 25:5 (KJV)Lead me in thy [God's] truth John 14:6 (KJV)Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth John 15:26 (KJV)even the Spirit of truth No why do we have three? God the Father is the Giver Matt 17:11 God the son the is the Gift John 4:10 God the Spirit helps to Experience the Gift. John 14:25 See http://everlasting-gospel.blogspot.com/ - See the section Answering Jehovah Witnesses from the NWT (GODHEAD). The site touches on Godhead. See link: http://everlasting-gospel.blog...erson.html
written by Kevin McGill, March 17, 2009
Earlier in the post, Natalie mentions the quote by Ellen White, "The nature of the Holy Spirit is a mystery. Men cannot explain it, because the Lord has not revealed it to them. Men having fanciful views may bring together passages of Scripture and put a human construction on them, but the acceptance of these views will not strengthen the church. Regarding such mysteries, which are too deep for human understanding, silence is golden." Acts of the Apostles, pg. 51.
Before this site I hand never questioned the concept of the trinity, but I believe that this questioning is a good thing, however the point remains the nature and spirit of God is beyond human reason and we must consider this in our efforts to "define" God. As to Real Michaud's comments, I also aim to interpret Mrs. White so that nothing contradicts, but that does not mean that I ignore statements as it appears you did of Derek when he quoted, Ellen White's proof that there IS a Godhead. III. Three Persons in the Godhead There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the (442) Holy Spirit--those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.-- Evangelism, p. 615. {7ABC 441.9} The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption.--Counsels on Health, p. 222. {7ABC 442.1} Real Michaud, you also said in response to me,” If you study closely and honestly, you will find that Mrs. White and those around her that were true to the foundation that build the church, that they never mentioned any support for the trinity doctrine" In response to you I am studying closely and honestly, and I encourage you to do likewise...my mind isn't made up on this, but the evidence I see is a progression towards a Trinitarian view pt by Ellen White and then consequentially the SDA church. However I recognize that there is evidence on both sides, I don't want to come to a premature conclusion. I will have to break this post into 2 parts ~Kevin M
written by Paul Steve, March 17, 2009
Holy Spirit - not another person?
- Romans 8:34 (KJV)Who is he that condemneth? It is Christ that died, yea rather, that is risen again, who is even at the right hand of God, who 'also' maketh intercession for us. Already in Romans chapter 8 mentions that there is another Person who pleads for us, and that is why Christ Jesus is mentioned as ‘also’ pleading. Who is this other person? Rom 8:26 Likewise the SPIRIT also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit ITSELF maketh intercession (pleading) for us with groanings which cannot be uttered. 27 And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God. Clearly the other person is the Holy Spirit! Who is Jesus pleading with? God the Father. Guess who Sprit is pleading with? The Spirit is pleading "for the saints according to the will of God. ". Therefore Sprit cannot be the Father or the Son or an extension of him, for he is not pleading with himself. Thus, the Spirit is a separate person jsut like Jesus who “also” pleads” for us. - Jesus refers to Him as “another [Greek allos] helper,” one who intercedes for someone else. He is called “another” because Jesus is also a helper (1 John 2:1). EGW: "The Lord Jesus acts through the Holy Spirit; for it is His representative." Messages to Young People, 55. Christ in heaven and the Holy Spirit on earth.."Jesus had assured them that He would send the Comforter, as an equivalent for His visible presence." 3 Spirit of Prophecy, 256. "Before this the Spirit had been in the world; from the very beginning of the work of redemption He had been moving upon men's hearts. But while Christ was on earth, the disciples had desired no other helper. Not until they were deprived of His presence would they feel their need of the Spirit, and then He would come. Desire of Ages, 669. Christ is called the everlsting Father and yet he is seperate person from the Father. Christ is also the comforter/helper/advocate and yet He is seperate person from the Spirit who is another comforter.
written by Paul Steve, March 17, 2009
Many in the christendom define Trinity as "Three persons in one person God". Unfortunately many of my fellow adventist bretheren do have this view. However, in the same way, some in the SDA reform movements (splinter groups) would also have people who would hold on to doctrines which those churches do not approve). This is unavoidable since people are an easy target for the devil to mix error with the truth. What is certain is that God will have a true remnant movement in these last days. If Trinity is defined as "Three persons in one person God", to this i nor my fellow adventist brethern would agree. Neither would Ellen White. What is biblcal is Godhead; defined as God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit are each eternal, and one in nature and purpose, but not in being a single person. One God in three persons; one is not in person, one in unity.
Thus when it says God is one (Deuteronomy 6:4)it implies UNITY. Jesus said "I and the father are one" (John 10:30). One here means unity because Jesus and the Father are two seperate persons and yet part of one Godhead. In Gensis 2:24, when a man and wife get together, they become ONE, but yet they are two seperate persons. So one can be understood as unity! Christ, is he created? John 1:3 (KJV) All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. Without him was not any thing made that was made, then he cannot be created! Col 1:16,17 For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether they be thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: Same thrust here! He cannot have a beginning: See what Ellen white says: Begotten is not same as created: "God so loved the world, that he gave his only-begotten Son,"-- not a son by creation, as were the angels, nor a son by adoption, as is the forgiven sinner, but a Son begotten in the express image of the Father's person, and in all the brightness of his majesty and glory, one equal with God in authority, dignity, and divine perfection. In him dwelt all the fullness of the Godhead bodily. {ST, May 30, 1895 par. 3} What a Saviour we have! It was he that revealed himself to John on the Isle of Patmos, and proclaimed, "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." None but just such an ever-living, mighty God, could pay the ransom to save sinners from going down into the pit of death.” -RH, February 18, 1896 par. 4
written by Kevin McGill, March 17, 2009
This question is deffinately indepth, I am being cautious to not make up my mind to quickly on this issue. And again, I agree with Natalie that this subject takes patient maturity...and I desire to examine it openly and honestly. Here are some points that people who have researched how Ellen G White is anti trinatarin may be able to ansswer:
In their thinking, early Adventists associated traditional Trinitarianism with modalist monarchianism which denied the threeness of God and asserted that Father, Son and Holy Spirit are not separate personalities. Ellen White, however, in 1897, flatly rejected this view.She said that when Jesus died on the cross, “Deity did not die. Humanity died” (Ms 131, 1897). This statement of Ellen White more than any other turned the tide from antitrinitarianism to a biblical trinitarianism. Ellen White’s doctrinal statements on God, the divinity of Christ and personhood of the Holy Spirit developed over the length of her ministry. Special Testimonies, B (1905) “The Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fulness of the Godhead, making manifest the power of divine grace to all who receive and believe in Christ as a personal Saviour. There are three living persons of the heavenly trio; in the name of these three great powers--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit-- those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized, and these powers will co-operate with the obedient subjects of heaven in their efforts to live the new life in Christ.” (SpTB07 63)
written by Kevin McGill, March 12, 2009 Natalie I agree with you patient maturity is important. I know full well that there is "answers" to both sides of every debate. However I don't want to get into that mind set of this being a debate, I just want to accept what is most biblical and right, as Ellen White said, “The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people,is not a proof that our ideas are infallible". I know that not everything I believe is automatically right.This is a complicated subject, but I believe it is worth understanding. I am enjoying the search...and would apprechiate a thoughtful response to the following: Theological Openness While holding firmly to the basic Adventist doctrines, “the landmarks” as she called them,2 Ellen White was always willing to accept new light. “The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people,” she said, “is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation.”3 During the early decades of our church most of our leaders, including James White, were anti-Trinitarians. Ellen White herself made one or two statements that could be interpreted as anti-Trinitarian. In the context of her description of the fall of Satan, for example, she wrote, “The great Creator assembled the heavenly host, that he might in the presence of all the angels confer special honor upon his Son . . . The Father then made known that it was ordained by himself that Christ, his Son, should be equal with himself; so that wherever was the presence of his Son, it was his own presence.”4 This statement cannot refer to Christ being less or different from the Father in nature since she says on the same page that “He was one with the Father before the angels were created.” Whatever she meant when she wrote this, in the course of time she received more light which eventually led to her very clear Trinitarian statements at the turn of the century. First, in 1897 she wrote, “In Him [Christ] was life, original, unborrowed, underived,”5 and then in 1905 she wrote a warning to our workers connected with the medical work in which she unambiguously endorsed the Trinity doctrine. “The Son is all the fullness of the Godhead manifest” she stated, “the Comforter that Christ promised to send after He ascended to heaven, is the Spirit in all the fullness of the Godhead,” therefore, “there are three living persons of the heavenly trio.”6 2 Only someone who believed the Trinity doctrine would speak of “three living persons of the heavenly trio.” While most of the pioneers were anti-Trinitarians, Ellen White, on the basis of divine revelations, guided the church towards the Trinitarian position. This link can be found here http://www.adventistbiblicalre...ents/Ellen White as a Theologian.pdf I don't necessarily agree with the interpretation given for the "heavenly trio" but what is an honest interpretation of it?
 written by Natalie K, March 11, 2009
It takes a patient and mature person to look at the facts instead of adopting the opinions of others as their own. True education is not in refuting everything that contradicts with what you believe, rather, true education is in objectively looking at both view of an issue before "taking sides". It is therefore to promote and encourage people to objectively search out what is truth and not that such comments as the ones below are kept on this website. I pray that the viewers of the comments below will not take the opinions of others as their own, but will search out the truth of these matters for themselves. The internet has "supportive information" about any and every point of view, such as information that Jesus was the Messiah to information saying that He was an impostor. It is therefore very necessary for people to be objective.
WLC Team
written by Real Michaud, March 10, 2009
If I might chime in. If you study closely and honestly, you will find that Mrs. White and those around her that were true to the foundation that build the chruch, that they never mentioned any support for the trinity doctrine. Remember that in Revelation that Jesus christ is at the right hand of God, where is the Holy Spirit? Is he at the left hand.
Take this verse for instance: Rev 3:11 I come quickly: hold fast that which thou hast, that no one take thy crown. Rev 3:12 He that overcometh, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go out thence no more: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God, and mine own new name. (This is Jesus speaking) Here is says Jesus has a God four times. And here we read: Joh 20:17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. (Jesus is speaking again) Jesus says he has a Father and a God, and we have a Father and a God. Here again in Romans it says Jesus was raised from the dead from God, and Jesus is Lord. Rom 10:9 because if thou shalt confess with thy mouth Jesus as Lord, and shalt believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved: It says that if you confess with your mouth that Jesus as Lord and God raised him you will be save. Did you know that since the Trinity doctrine has been introduced in to the SDA church that people believe that Jesus raised himself from the dead, or had the power to do so, but deferred this to God. This is the doctrine of immortality of the soul, that Jesus did not die that only his human part died, but his diety never died. This is impossible, because there is not one shred of evidence in the Bible that Jesus could ever take up his own life from the dead. Jesus was human and he died. His spirit, or his breath of life, his soul was given up also, but given back to him by God the Father. Check this out, Mrs White herself pointed out that Jesus was not "God Almighty" There is no one who can explain the mystery of the incarnation of Christ. Yet we know that He came to this earth and lived as a man among men. The man Christ Jesus was not the Lord God Almighty, yet Christ and the Father are one. The Deity did not sink under the agonizing torture of Calvary, yet it is nonetheless 1130 true that "God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life." {SDA bible commentary Vol 5 1129.7} The Bible says that also. Jesus has a God, and it is his Father. The spirit of God was given to him by his Father, and the Spirit is the personality of God; not another person floating around. I Hope this helps.
written by Kevin McGill, March 10, 2009
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/...inity1.htm
http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/trinity/moon/moon-trinity2.htm I don't expect most people to follow these links, but I am an Adventist that truly wants to be open to truth with an honest spirit of prayer. I don't profess to know all the answers but I am searching, and through this process I am enjoying learning more about God's wonderful nature, it is inspiring to me. I am 24 years old, and have been Adventist all my life, but I am only now really searching, and finding answers to questions. I apprechiate this site, because from my observation so far it is an honest search for truth. I would apprechiate a WLC response to the above links, but I realize I may not get one, if not that is ok and I will keep searching for the answer from this site, as it compares to ellen white, and above all the bible. ~Sincerly Kevin M
written by Real Michaud, February 23, 2009
I agree. that is the problem with the trinity doctrine. it makes the Holy Spirit a literal 3rd person. Everything I have ever read in the Bible and the Spirit of Prophesy never speaks of the Holy Spirit as an actual third living being. Satan wants to be the third person.
To the trinitarians who believe 3 in 1 and 1 in 3 how come are we instructed by Jesus Christ himself to pray to the Father in His (Jesus') name. We are to pray for the spirit and walk in the spirit. To use the gifts of the spirit, but we are never told to worship or pray to the spirit. If one is honest, the Holy Spirit of God is the personal power and presence of God and Jesus in our minds. If you believe that Jesus is not the literal son of God, and believe that the Holy Spirit is an actual third person of the Godhead then my sorry friend you are unknowingly worshiping a false god and worshiping Satan. Its that simple. Pray and read the Bible and if any other writing is not according to the Bible it is not inspired and there is no light in it.
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Bro, I am not thinking that, it jsut obvious from the OFFICAL CATHOLIC THEOLOGICAL WORKS THAT I have quoted. I guess some research into these quotes would do agreat deal to you to clarify your confusion.Trinity error and your error both has its roots in Catholicism. Do your own research!!!!
-----First you do nothing but promote the trinity------
I did not support the “three person in one person” catholic theology. I supported the Three person distinct Godhead that is supported by the bible and EGW.
------then you turn around and say we support the trinity?----
I did not say you support the Three person distinct Godhead, I say you support the confusing Trinity error which the Catholic church supports.
-----You quote some odd Catholic sources,------
It may be odd to you, but I have quoted from the “official Catholic theological works”. Do some research before you make conclusion.
Proverbs 18:13 He that answereth a matter before he heareth it, it is folly and shame unto him.
---- but no matter how you slice and dice it, the Catholics and most Protestants believe in 3 in 1 and 1 in 3. That is "mystery Babylon".-----
The Catholics and most Protestants believe in 3 in 1 and 1 in 3; This is true. But I don't.The bible nor EGW supports tis idea.I have shown a three person disticnt Godhead who are one not in one person but one in unity.
-----you say....If you accept the teaching that the Holy Spirit is not the separate, Third Person of the Godhead, you are a good Catholic. Beware of the errors you accept from teachers in our ranks.] My confused brother you miss the point. The Catholics believe that all three persons are co-eternal and all should be worshipped-------
Bro, am i the one who is missing or you?. I am quoting official Catholic theological sources. Catholics have BOTH views in their theology (don't know whether you realise this????. Although Catholic theologians talk about “three Persons” in their Trinity, they do not really teach three persons (Do u catch it?)! The Son is something God keeps inventing out of His own “intellect” (“eternal generation,” it is called). The two of them exude, or float out, something called “the Holy Ghost” which isn’t really there. It is only an expression of the “will” of God. DO YOUR RESEARCH!
------Here is another quote from the same council saying this... it says they are of the same substance...meaning that God the Father and the Son are the exact same person. This is blasphemy.-----
Where did I say that the Father and the Son are the same person????? They are not.
----Now be honest steve....be honest about this subject...do not try and say the Trinity is correct and then when you are losing the battle against truth, turn around and say the trinity is false and me or anyone else at WLC is promoting the Trinity! Its perposterous!------
Honestly bro, I do not believe in the Catholic church trinity that says God is one person and at the same time three persons. Roman Catholicism also teaches that the Son comes out of the Father and the Holy Spirit comes from both;—and yet there is only one God! There is no Son apart from the Father and no Holy Spirit apart from both. Significantly, the roots of Arianism (Christ is not eternal) and the no-separate-Holy Spirit teaching both find their source in this peculiar doctrine. Catholic theologians gradually combined pagan concepts with a misinterpretation of Scripture—to present the world with a magnificent counterfeit of the truth: (1) A Son who is always partly there and always partly emerging out (“continuous generation”) from the Father. (2) A Holy Spirit, which has no separate existence, but is continually exhaled (“continuous spiration”) from both the Father and the Son.
Study bro!!!!
God bless you in your study